Ti-Phil wrote:There are, as said before, different levels of WCA, or rather awareness that what we do is not our own will.
For characters :
Level 0 : Has no idea what is going on and live his or her life, having adventures and such.
Level 1 : Someone who is fated to do something. He or she knows that doing this is inevitable "according to the prophecy".
Level 2 : Author aknowledgement. The characters can interact with the author, mostly by words (or in some comic, with the Author's avatar).
Level 3 : Aware they are in a comic. This is where most of the fourth wall breaking comes in. Talking to the audience and such.
Level 4 : Interracting with the readers or the readers avatar. This is the level where boundaries are lost and where most of the crossover wars went after the inclusion of the forums.
Level 5 : Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.
Fesworks wrote:...In closing, I will probably never again participate (or attempt to coordinate) a Forum-Based RP+Comic, unless its closer to a Traditional Comic Jam.
Fesworks wrote: ... rewrite ...
Level 1 : Self-Aware. Minor Free Will. Minor Independent Thought.
Knows/believes that they exist. Perhaps believes in fate or greater power that controls most everything.
Level 2 : Self-Aware. Limited Free Will. Some Independent Thought.
Author or "god" acknowledgment. The characters can interact with the author. (Talking to the "sky" or "in-person" with author's avatar).
Level 3 : Self and World Aware. Some Free Will. Independent Thought.
They know they are in a "fictional" medium. Able to interact with the audience of own choice. May be able to "see" outside the 4th wall.
Level 4 : Fully Self, World Aware. Semi-Other World Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Have cognizance and even interaction of and with other media avatars and/or with other media existences. Understanding of "real" world and the "Fictional" worlds.
Level 5 : Fully Delf-Aware. Fully World and other-world Aware. Free Will. Independent Thought.
Manipulation of the comic in Author-like way : Catnap and the Editor.
Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.
Amon Star wrote:Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.
I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.
DatabaseError wrote:Amon Star wrote:Keybounce wrote:Far, far better (I think) to introduce a "GM character" poster, with the view that the forumites can do whatever they want, following their own rules -- be it bringing out crates of TF guns, sending deliveries of newbie packages to comic characters, assembling fleets of ships, or whatever -- but when they do something that interacts with the comic characters, all they say is what they are doing, not what the results will be. That has to come from the GM character (who either is, or talks with, the comic story writers), and the most interesting / plot relevant results get drawn into the story.
I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.
Which is why I think that the way a "forum crossover" should be handled is by audition. Allow people to submit characters, pick the good ones, and then take writing samples from the players to see if they're good enough to invite onboard as a warmonger. If they aren't, ask permission to simply use the character under your own authorship. I think a lot of forumites would love the chance to have their persona featured in a comic, even if they themselves didn't write it.
Spinoff RPs are still cool, but they should be moderated (as any RP that eventually involves conflict should,) and they shouldn't interact directly with the main storyline. Throwing references and cameos around between the two would still work, but anything more should be avoided.
Amon Star wrote:DatabaseError wrote:Amon Star wrote:I GM would only work if they have the authority to evict troublesome people from the Crossover. Otherwise, they would get ignored by the vocals.
Which is why I think that the way a "forum crossover" should be handled is by audition. Allow people to submit characters, pick the good ones, and then take writing samples from the players to see if they're good enough to invite onboard as a warmonger. If they aren't, ask permission to simply use the character under your own authorship. I think a lot of forumites would love the chance to have their persona featured in a comic, even if they themselves didn't write it.
Spinoff RPs are still cool, but they should be moderated (as any RP that eventually involves conflict should,) and they shouldn't interact directly with the main storyline. Throwing references and cameos around between the two would still work, but anything more should be avoided.
I like the audition idea, though the ability to evict people would still be necessary. I've known a lot of people that act perfectly reasonable until the chips are down.
DatabaseError wrote:That would be a problem. I guess you'd have to give them the option of withdrawing their character in some way or keeping the character in the story but turning control over to one of the other warmongers.
Also, something slightly more on-topic: From an in-character standpoint, the comic reality could be some sort of pocket universe contained within our own, possibly created and maintained by some sort of unconscious psychic field (the imagination of the author(s). Forums, of course, would be created by a psychic gestalt of all the players, which is why they're more fluid.) That also solves some ontological inertia issues that "parallel universes" wouldn't. For example, if a character were to escape to the real world and kill their author, it would be expected that the character wouldn't exist, since there's nobody to write them. With the whole "psychic field" explanation, that would just automatically work without having to add in extra explanations; remove the field, and the universe and character cease to exist.
Of course, from an out of character standpoint, we realize it's just a story. And, depending on how much awareness you want a character to have, they might realize it, too. The problem I see with that level of awareness, unless it's played for comedic effect (as with deadpool,) is that they're hard to make believable. Actually, it's not just hard to make a character believable, it's hard to make a universe that melds the real-world and fiction on such a scale without running into some strange logical conundrums. I keep hitting weird loops when I think about writing those situations: Thinking about it, it's impossible to let the character know they're just a character, and still maintain the illusion of them having free will. Once you introduce an author, unless you're using an "alternate universe" explanation like I posited above, you've essentially demonstrated that nobody in that story has free will. Destroying somebody's idea of free will would logically damage their psyche, but the problem here is that, because you've introduced the idea that they're fictional into the fiction itself, the characters should no longer have enough individuality to be angsty, unless the author writes them that way. Which just ends up making the story look like some sort of crazy puppeteer putting on a show.
...
Okay, this post went places. I honestly had no idea what I was going to write before I started writing
Amon Star wrote:DatabaseError wrote:That would be a problem. I guess you'd have to give them the option of withdrawing their character in some way or keeping the character in the story but turning control over to one of the other warmongers.
Also, something slightly more on-topic: From an in-character standpoint, the comic reality could be some sort of pocket universe contained within our own, possibly created and maintained by some sort of unconscious psychic field (the imagination of the author(s). Forums, of course, would be created by a psychic gestalt of all the players, which is why they're more fluid.) That also solves some ontological inertia issues that "parallel universes" wouldn't. For example, if a character were to escape to the real world and kill their author, it would be expected that the character wouldn't exist, since there's nobody to write them. With the whole "psychic field" explanation, that would just automatically work without having to add in extra explanations; remove the field, and the universe and character cease to exist.
Of course, from an out of character standpoint, we realize it's just a story. And, depending on how much awareness you want a character to have, they might realize it, too. The problem I see with that level of awareness, unless it's played for comedic effect (as with deadpool,) is that they're hard to make believable. Actually, it's not just hard to make a character believable, it's hard to make a universe that melds the real-world and fiction on such a scale without running into some strange logical conundrums. I keep hitting weird loops when I think about writing those situations: Thinking about it, it's impossible to let the character know they're just a character, and still maintain the illusion of them having free will. Once you introduce an author, unless you're using an "alternate universe" explanation like I posited above, you've essentially demonstrated that nobody in that story has free will. Destroying somebody's idea of free will would logically damage their psyche, but the problem here is that, because you've introduced the idea that they're fictional into the fiction itself, the characters should no longer have enough individuality to be angsty, unless the author writes them that way. Which just ends up making the story look like some sort of crazy puppeteer putting on a show.
...
Okay, this post went places. I honestly had no idea what I was going to write before I started writing
Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.
Amon Star wrote:DatabaseError wrote:lots of stuff
Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.
littlebeast wrote:Amon Star wrote:DatabaseError wrote:lots of stuff
Regarding the "No Freewill" issue, I can answer that. Many Authors say the best characters write themselves, completely derailing what the Author originally planned. Therefore, in that case it would be possible for them to be Aware without the loss of Freewill.
Indeed. I actually feel like I have very little control of what's happening in the present of the comic. I can set up situations, yeah, but even I don't know where it's going to go. The best I can do is try to nudge characters in the right direction, which doesn't always work.
Also, no offense meant to anyone, but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?
(for that matter, how is it any different in any other way - but that's not a discussion for this thread. Well, it might be. But.)
Hmm. I know my stories almost always seem to rely on the characters as the driving force, and the plot is just a way to get them to do interesting things - but I'm not sure how many people write that way. Not really sure if it's a good style of writing even for me, but it's what I do.
DatabaseError wrote:Not necessarily. Maybe that would be the case in something like a free-form RP, where there's no plot, but once you've introduced the idea of an author (which usually means a plot,) you've got a situation where things are more or less "on rails." Sure, there's some wiggle room, but things will likely still happen the way they're supposed to happen for the plot.
Of course, this has a lot to do with my opinion. IMO, characters should evolve from the plot, not the other way around. The point of a story is typically the plot, and the characters are there to advance the plot.
DatabaseError wrote:... but once you've introduced the idea of an author (which usually means a plot,) you've got a situation where things are more or less "on rails." Sure, there's some wiggle room, but things will likely still happen the way they're supposed to happen for the plot.
Of course, this has a lot to do with my opinion. IMO, characters should evolve from the plot, not the other way around. The point of a story is typically the plot, and the characters are there to advance the plot.
but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?
Keybounce wrote:I am a very different view.
Keybounce wrote:An author does not mean a plot. Does not mean rails.
An author means other people -- antagonists and neutagonists
Keybounce wrote:(neutral-gonists?) -- who have their own motives, drives, agendas, and situations. An author means the world that you interact with. You affect it, it affects you.
Keybounce wrote:littlebeast wrote:but in real life many people believe in an omnipotent god - how is that any less detracting of free will? Or rather, how is being in a story any more opposed to free will?
Maybe God gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?
Maybe some of the people you interact with are "god in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what god wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?
Maybe the author gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?
Maybe some of the people you interact with are "author in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what the author wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?
littlebeast wrote:Maybe the author gives you situations, and how you handle them is your free will?
Maybe some of the people you interact with are "author in disguise", for lack of a better term -- not so much free, independent actors, but NPC's doing what the author wants, for you to be the protagonist of your own story with?
Yup, looks like the same basic ideas.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest