The Crossover Wars Central Hub

This is the shared forum for all the comic and events of the 2007 webcomic event of the Crossover Wars.

Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:12 pm

fesworks wrote:
Hogan wrote:And now the Hub for Scale's Tale has been updated too!!

... with some splitting up in new parts to help readibility.. hopefully :)

... and fixing of dead links to P.S.I. ... everywhere in the Central Hub for that matter ;)

... and the last strips from the Fur Brigade and FA-Forum have finally been added! :o

Now, did anyone see my Saturday zip past?



Of course the Fur Brigade is terribly incomplete... I mighty end up stick-figuring it complete sometime... just so it's technically done.


I know, and should they be completed, I will off course add them... :cheers:
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:53 pm

And finally the Evil Overlords Chronicles have also been updated with regard to layout and missing links, so this means the whole Hub (disregarding the links to the Zortic comic) should be fully updated and available at its best!

A few minor fixes now and I consider the Hub properly updated :cheers:
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:15 pm

In case someone is keeping score... the "Days of War" entries have now also all been properly updated :)

As far as I know, only the links to Zortic needs fixing, and he'll get there with the new links soon enough...
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:41 am

While few might have noticed, the current update on DD, which also has fully changed the way the urls to the individual strips go, has affected the Crossover Wars Hub... in the way that a good number of the links went to strip from Drunk Duck based comics, and they are now also dead as doornails... :(

So, at the moment the Hub is not only crippled, but its hospitalized too and about to go into a coma...

Just FYI
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby KAMics » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:35 pm

Okayyyyyyyy... went through & got the new links for the KAMics in the Crossover Wars. (Yeesh, I did a lot of comics for that.)

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=147204
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4853859/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=147206
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4853861/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=150423
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4855678/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=152170
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4856714/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=153539
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4857687/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=154539
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4858289/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=155508
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4858872/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=156002
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4859175/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/?p=156874
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4859677/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=157560
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4860081/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=158108
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4860354/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=158594
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4860646/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=158604
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4860652/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=159268
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4861044/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=162326
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4862640/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=169152
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4866346/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=169153
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4866347/

Couldn't find the thumbnail for this on the March 2007 pages. It was the end of the Cortland/KAMics section)
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4866770/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=174205
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4869326/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=175155
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4869857/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=176890
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4870767/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=178007
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4871386/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=178474
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4871652/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=180824
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4873082/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/?p=182113
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4873925/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=182622
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4874217/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=185009
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4875590/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=186234
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4876317/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=187488
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4876974/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=189401
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4878151/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=190907
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4879117/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=191624
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4879575/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=193686
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4880723/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=194820
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4881340/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=195949
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4882008/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=197455
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4882825/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=198854
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4883667/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=199832
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4884198/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=201725
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4885314/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=208358
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4889116/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=210419
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4890369/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=212548
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4891751/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=214458
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4892892/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=215590
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4893633/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=217412
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4894853/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=222407
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4898133/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=223694
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4898911/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=224632
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4899446/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=226137
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4900307/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=227641
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4901170/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=228846
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4901975/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=229906
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4902725/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=232000
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4904085/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=232753
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4904544/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=233252
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4904845/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=233904
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4905258/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=238892
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4908261/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=240130
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4909026/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=240131
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4909027/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=242400
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4910468/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=245457
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4912520/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=246615
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4913196/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=251016
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4915915/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=252385
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4916761/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=253815
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4917817/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=256804
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4919731/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=257487
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4920191/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=258576
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4920837/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=261492
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4922902/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=262177
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4923406/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=262928
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4923995/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=263513
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4924399/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=265010
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4925443/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=266800
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4926730/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=267985
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4927571/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=267986
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4927572/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=271268
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4929746/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=277432
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4933916/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=279980
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4935582/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=286188
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4939679/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=287120
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4940268/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=287121
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4940269/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=288697
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4941371/

http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/index.php?p=291099
http://www.drunkduck.com/The_KAMics/4943027/
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby KAMics » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:22 am

Couldn't find this comic in the hub, but...

Like Fish In Water
http://www.drunkduck.com/Like_Fish_in_Water/4884850/
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby fesworks » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:58 pm

Hey, if you are making link updates, you may need to for Jenny Everywhere: The Crossing Over Worlds

I just went through and updated a source page on the new Shifter Archive, including newfound links for the Too Many Authors, Life And Death:
http://theshifterarchive.com/projects/t ... er-worlds/

Also, if you go to the comic itself, I folded in comics from other sites into the archive (usually under the comic), including the now offline Betapwned:
http://fesworks.com/JENNY

Sorry I'm not picking them out. I'm in a rush.
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 am

Okay, I've finally come so far that I'm, physically and mentally, ready to tackle the job it is to get the Hub back in working order, to check and reinstate all the dead links caused by Drunk Duck's little "playtime" last summer... :|

I'll be taking on the task by concentraing on updating the "storylines" one by one, crossreferencing the sort-by-calender Archive as I go along, doubling back and rechecking when I'm through.

As for now the following storylines should be back in working order:

Adult Wars
Jenny Everywhere Caper
Super Wars

... those were the easy ones

Let me know if I miss anything in the storylines I claim to have been through, I'll be continuing with the rest as time sees me fit...

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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:45 pm

And now The Fantasy Wars too have been put back together... :)
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:39 pm

Found enough time to spare to get The Squirrel Wars properly fixed too... go nuts! :cheers:
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:53 am

And now Scale's Tale should be back in order, I even got to fix the links for Too Many Authors to his new site (we miss you around here Littlebeast).

The links to Zortic are still dead however.. I know they will soon be back online at the new site, and I don't feel like switching to internal links just to switch them back again in a month's time...

About halfway through the Hub now I reckon...
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:19 am

In case anyone keeps up, the links for the Sci-Fi Wars are now also put back together...

May the Force be with them! :cheers:
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:08 am

Well, whadda you know...?

I decided to get this over with and make a run for it, so as of today the storylines of Evil Overlords Chronicles, The WCA Hunt (still minus the Zortic parts) as well as The Forum Wars now too have had their links fixed and updated.

... and that actually mean that the whole Hub should now be back in working order :o
... save the Zortic strips off course...

It has been a long and har progress, but now, after more than half a year, each and every DrunkDuck-link in the Archive as well as the various associated Hubs, should now have been fixed and reinstated...

If this happends again I will not fix, I will kill..

Well, a good thing about having to go back through the Wars and work with the links was that I got to reexperience many of the best parts of the Wars, and that was almost worth it. Because of this, thanks again to all the people, even though hardly any of them will probably see this, who took part in the Wars, be it as artists, writer and players... it was a great time :cheers:

That reminds me... during the link-fixing I finally got to get back into a set of notes Littlebeast left me before he disappeared. This means there's now been added a backlog of more that 40 extra strips to The Forum Wars, like the last half of Part 4 and the whole Part 5 (caused some renumbering of the parts...).

Now there should only be left adding a Note to the various comic's entries in the Archive about their participation in the project and we can, again, close this off :)
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:49 pm

... and just like that, all appropiate entries in the Archive should now have a Note heralding their connection to the project :)

That's all folks! :cheers:

... right until someone points out any mistakes I've made along the way ;)
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby KarabearComics » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:50 am

Aside from the Zortic files (which I understand the reason they aren't online--it doesn't make me happy about it, though, because I want to read the entire Wars), I wanted to say that there are two pages I can't view: the August 5, 2007 Keenfans which looks like it may be a sprite strip (made by the Too Many Authors guy?) and the September 7, 2007 Pimpette and Associates. The former is a bad image and the latter is a bad link. Just thought you might want to know.

But gosh darn it, I want the Zortic strips to get into their archive. That's a lot of the WCA Hunt right there. I did go to Archive.org and was abl to see exactly three of the Zortic pages from that, but it still makes things difficult to follow.

By the way, I was wondering if you were going to organize the list of all the strips into proper reading order. I understand that it may be a large endeavor, but it would be easier to read the story. Of course, considering the schedule slip of some of the contributors, such an order might have the date bounce around. Just wondering, anyways.
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:41 pm

... and we almost made it two months before somebody found mistakes to point out... :lol:

KarabearComics wrote:Aside from the Zortic files (which I understand the reason they aren't online--it doesn't make me happy about it, though, because I want to read the entire Wars), I wanted to say that there are two pages I can't view: the August 5, 2007 Keenfans which looks like it may be a sprite strip (made by the Too Many Authors guy?) and the September 7, 2007 Pimpette and Associates. The former is a bad image and the latter is a bad link. Just thought you might want to know.


Oh, I want to know allright! Thanks for feretting these two out, I HATE when there's holes in the Hub... :|
Well, the Keenfans-strip (Guest-Strip from Littlebeast) seems to have been corrupted on the Keenfans-site... or because it was linked from the DD-site of TMA which have now change? I cannot say, but I was unable to find it anywhere else so I have redirected the link to the Internal archive of CW-strips instead, so it should now be viewable again.
As for the Pimpette strip, then you have come across the last remain from when Pimpette caught up with her contribution to the Wars and first posted her strips, then backdated and moved them... looks like I missed one strip during that procedure :o
The link now works again, but the strip in speaking has been moved to the 19th of March instead...
Thanks for the help! :cheers:

KarabearComics wrote:But gosh darn it, I want the Zortic strips to get into their archive. That's a lot of the WCA Hunt right there. I did go to Archive.org and was abl to see exactly three of the Zortic pages from that, but it still makes things difficult to follow.


Ay, I can only agree with you there... :(
Well, I DO have a copy of each and every strip from the Crossover Wars stored away, just in case something like this where a comic disappears should happen, and I WAS going to redirect all the Zortic links to this Internal archive, but then I talked to Mark Mekkes, and he promised that he would soon catch up with the Wars through the re-uploading of the CLassic Zortic strips (he still got 10 months to go though) and then I would have to redirect the links again...
So, in order to save me the work, we are waiting out until the strips are back online... unless you can't wait and want to ask me to mail you a copy of said strips? ;-)

KarabearComics wrote:By the way, I was wondering if you were going to organize the list of all the strips into proper reading order. I understand that it may be a large endeavor, but it would be easier to read the story. Of course, considering the schedule slip of some of the contributors, such an order might have the date bounce around. Just wondering, anyways.


Well, there HAVE been some talk about whether making one long unbroken storyline would be doable or make sense, mostly due to the many criss-crossing storylines, and it was given some thoughts, but in the end it was decided that it would not be possible to do such a thinkg and/or nobody volunteered to give it a try... your pick :|
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby KarabearComics » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:36 am

Well, I silently decided to give it a try and am almost done slotting the strips in the right spots in a list I made (if nothing else, so I can order it better on my own computer). What I did was take the orders given for each front as a basis. The second Mindmistress story is the only one I will not slot in with the rest, because it is more separated than anything else, in my opinion.

So, the wall I've hit? Getting the American Gothic strips, through the Rocky Horror dress-up, into the right spots. I can't think of where to fit them. I need to find a place after Aggie leaves CameoComic and Fellback returns from attacking the forum-goers in which Deception is not in the Evil Overlords pages, so I can at least put in the Gothia torturing Squata through her transformation into the cat-girl. The little "girl's night" bit is even trickier, actually, because I don't think there is an opening for it, since the characters aren't seen actually observing the passage of day and night in the regular Evil Overlords pages.

If anybody wants to help, please give me suggestions. When I'm done, I'll post in here what I have come up with.
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:40 pm

KarabearComics wrote:Well, I silently decided to give it a try and am almost done slotting the strips in the right spots in a list I made (if nothing else, so I can order it better on my own computer). What I did was take the orders given for each front as a basis. The second Mindmistress story is the only one I will not slot in with the rest, because it is more separated than anything else, in my opinion.


Oh my... consider me genuinely seriously impressed that you have even thought of undetaking a project of this magnitude... I will SO be looking forward to how it pans out and will like to set it up on the Hub in the end :)

KarabearComics wrote:So, the wall I've hit? Getting the American Gothic strips, through the Rocky Horror dress-up, into the right spots. I can't think of where to fit them. I need to find a place after Aggie leaves CameoComic and Fellback returns from attacking the forum-goers in which Deception is not in the Evil Overlords pages, so I can at least put in the Gothia torturing Squata through her transformation into the cat-girl. The little "girl's night" bit is even trickier, actually, because I don't think there is an opening for it, since the characters aren't seen actually observing the passage of day and night in the regular Evil Overlords pages.

If anybody wants to help, please give me suggestions. When I'm done, I'll post in here what I have come up with.


Yeah, I can see how this part can be tricky... "Aggie gone wild" would be a nice chapter-name for those, cause I believe nobody had any idea of what she was up to... Aggie included ;)
To be honest, I think most of the happenings could be placed under "meanwhile" in comictime... stuff that happends inbetween strips. Thats the best idea I can come up with on the fly...
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby KarabearComics » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:18 am

Luckily, many pages are on time with each other. Its especially nice that the dates for Evil Overlords United and CameoComic are correct for the timeline (no matter how long it took to actualy complete the latter). As well, the Super Wars is easy to interpolate, being on time with the rest, too.

But I can't help but thin that the setup for such a thing in the archive might be better handled a little differently than the others. Since threads criss-cross each other and the like, I was wondering if you thought about placing each "front" in a column d having them side-by-side on one page. After all, my current endeavor is just to get them all in the correct order. Breaking them up into more readable chapters can be quite difficult.

But some of the fronts are more like tie-ins than anything else. Jenny Everywhere is one of those, only seemingly tangentially involved until the end, when she helps with freeing the prisoners. The Adult Wars can be seen in the same light, as well, having little impact on the main story, as does the Squirrel Wars, Sci-Fi Wars and WCA Hunt. But the Fantasy Wars has extended interaction with the main storyline (especially the Rogues) and the Super Wars has major impact upon it. As well, the Forum Wars would be incomprehensible without the main storyline (and is probably pretty incomprehensible, anyways, but that's because the dates for them jump all over the place--especially Too Many Authors).

What I primarily want to do is to organize the comics on my computer in full chronological (to the timeline) order. Extending beyond that, to a "proper" reading order, will be difficult, but I'll try. But like I mentioned, a columned situation may help. Maybe it's because I use tables in my word processing program to actually help me organize, so I think about how one could just use one of them.
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Re: The Crossover Wars Central Hub

Postby Hogan » Thu May 03, 2012 11:23 pm

Well, I shall be the first to admit to the fact that the Hub for the Wars MIGHT could have been set up better... during the Wars I were usually behind 1-2 weeks behind with the updating of it and it was just something thrown together to help people get just a tiny bit of overview of the entire scope of the Wars..

Now the Wars are over I'm quite open to new ways to best showcase the entire event, so feel free to share your thoughts and ideas... the only problem I have is getting time to actually do the changes, but over time I'm sure I'll manage :)

... and yeah, some storylines became more incomprehendible than others through their run, and others (especially the forum wars) relied heavily on inside jokes... just to think of the trouble we had getting it together makes me think of all the helpless readers trying to make sense of it all... :|
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